[00:00:00] Is DEI dead? Not even close. I'm Bree Gorman and this is DEI will not die the podcast for people doing the real work of inclusion. Whether you are leading a team shaping DEI strategy or just trying to make change that lasts. You're in the right place. We will cut through the fluff and dig into practical insights that will help you lead with clarity, courage, and impact.

Want more tools and support? Head to breegorman.com.

Well, hello and yes, we're back. For DEI Will Not Die as typically I am on Wadderang Country again and wanna acknowledge, I guess the privilege I have to live, work, and play. On Wadderang Country to acknowledge elders past and present and pay respects to also any Aboriginal Torres Strait is who are joining [00:01:00] us on the call today.

I had the, it's not really a privilege so much, but certainly had a very moving experience watching the film genocide in the wildflower state, which was screened at Platform Arts locally on Wadderang Country. It's a film if you haven't had a chance to watch if you're based in Australia, or even if you're not, it really tells the story of the stolen generations in the state of Western Australia in a way that I certainly haven't seen it told before.

It's streaming on SBS on demand, so you can all go and watch and listen to that. Make sure you're in the right head space for it. It's moving, it's emotional. It's disturbing as well, for sure, but worth it and very much worth sharing it with colleagues in your workplaces if you can. Organising a screening.

Also advocating to have this film shown in places like schools where it is fortunately getting shown. So that's kind of just a, little [00:02:00] side note there, but something that I've been telling everybody that I'm running into that you really need to see this film and, and support it if you can. The privilege Today, we've got a guest episode.

I've had a really chance encounter with Paul down in Torquay, also on Wadderang Country. Actually on the day on Invasion Day when I think we'd both just attended the, Pilk Purriyn, which is an event that the Wadderang people hold on Invasion Day. So another moving experience, but we happen to run into each other at a cafe and said, well, why not?

Let's jump on and and have a chat. And I've respected Paul and heard him speak in many occasions before. So I think you're certainly in for a treat today. Paul, I'd love you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about why you've come to chat to me today, what kind of topic we're going to cover, and let's just take the conversation where, wherever it goes.

Yeah, thank you so much Bree, and it was wonderful running into you and your friends in that little old cafe, which [00:03:00] by the way, was on my birthday, which is one of the reasons that's, I was down there. 'cause I was born on, 26th of January and, by chance have the t-shirt on today as well from NAIDOC 2024.

Yeah, so my name is Paul Byrne-Moroney. I'm an intersex man. So I was born back in the, the late sixties and 66. I was born on Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung country, where I've been raised and where I'm, joining you all from this morning as well, i'm a gubba for those of you who don't know that, not an someone who is not a First Nations community member, but, it's been a big part of my life for many years, reconciliation and stuff.

So, it's, it feels appropriate that,, Bree and I actually met again in that space. Yeah, so intersex. Is a term that we use to describe people with innate variations of sex characteristics that are, are atypical to what the medical and social community considered to be, [00:04:00] uh, male or female. And it doesn't mean that we're not male or female.

It's like neurodiversity, there's a spectrum of maleness and femaleness in the world and we're just less typical in terms of what, certainly in the medical profession would. Look at someone and say, Hey, they're male, they're female, my variation is having X, X, Y, X chromosome. So I'm sure that everyone on the call remembers year eight or nine at school when they were told that boys are X, Y, and girls are.

Xx. And so did I, I remember that, but at that time, and we'll get into it later, at that time I had no idea that, they weren't talking about me from a chromosome perspective because my chromosomes are, if you like XX plus Y or X, Y yeah. Plus x, and I certainly have some traits of both. I can, tell you.

So yeah, that's me and that's, that's why I'm talking with you all today. This, conversation always interests [00:05:00] me too when you know, when I hear intersex people talk about that experience, it's very different and also somewhat similar to the experience of a person who's non-binary, who, you know, sat in those classes and learned about men and women and, you know, later on or at the time realised, hang on, I'm.

Don't identify either way, but also there's a lot of differences in the experiences, obviously, of intersex, but are you happy to share a little bit about the, I guess the gender sex? Sure. Kind of, how you experience that, those differences. Yeah, I'm really glad, I mean, it's a great audience that, that.

You know, this is for today because it's vital that we separate gender and biological sex as concepts or constructs because gender is a social construct and biological sex is, a biological entity. So that's the first thing, is that as a social construct over our life, we become [00:06:00] familiar with our own place in the world.

In terms of gender, gender roles, you know, it can be influenced by our appearance, how we feel, how the jobs we do, the people we meet. Intersect is not about gender as such. Not a gender identity, it's not a sexuality. It is about our bodies and how we are born. And of course, a, child or a baby being born clearly does not have the agency to say, this is or will be my gender, or this is or would be my sexuality.

It's, quite literally about our physicality, our hormones, our chromosomes, our reproductive organs and things like that. It's quite a separate thing. Of course, all of that can influence or be part of what becomes our sexuality or our gender, and, intersex people are as likely to be gender and sexually diverse as the broader community.

Hence why what I call my radio show, which we'll go into later, The I in Us, not [00:07:00] just the I in LGBTQA Plus, but as a play on that, The I in Us because it's, you know, intersex community within, among us all, which is 1.7 to 2.2% of the population. Yeah so in terms of my gender, yeah. I'm a cisgender male, heterosexual, intersex person.

And nowadays proud member of the LGBTQIA Plus community, which often throws people out a bit. It's like, how is that possible? But you know, you'll find out when we march next week in Mardi Gras. Yeah. So what's interesting too about your question, Bree, is that I learned about having XX, Y, X chromosomes when I was 28.

I've just turned 60 on the day that we, caught up, but I've only known the word intersex for 10 years. Brand new concept for me only when I was 50 years old. And at the time I thought, oh, the, I hang on the I's in the acronym, so how does that apply to me? And then of course I was, [00:08:00] you know, going off to ACMI in Melbourne, the Australian scene for the Moving image and, seeing the, the Queer Film Festival.

But I don't consider myself queer, like it's not a term that has ever applied to me. To me, it's an experience just like gender and I, not obviously, but I know a lot of queer people, but it just doesn't, resonate with me as a term. similarly, it's also really important to, for people to understand that being intersex is not the same as being non-binary.

Yes. It's not the same as being transgender. All these things, it's really important for people to understand. So I was confused by that 10 years ago, and I thought, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable being labeled within that broader community because. Trust me, it, happened many, many times, people would assume that I'm gay or trans or gender diverse.

If I say that I'm part of that community, no one ever says, oh, so you are you. Where do you fit in? You are interested, you know, they just automatically make assumptions and [00:09:00] gestures if they're a male or a gay male person too. They gesturing changes towards me when they know that I'm part of the LGBTQIA plus community.

And then I say, sorry, I'm, I'm not gay, sorry, I've taken this in a whole lot of different areas. No, I love it. I really love this, this thing because I think there's a lot of, you know, there was some confusion and still definitely is, particularly in the workplace inclusion spaces around when the Darlington statement.

Was released. Yeah. And you know, if you're not aware of the Darlington statement, you can go and Google it, you'll find it quite easily. There was confusion for people working in diversity, equity and inclusion spaces working in LGBTQIA plus inclusion. Do we include the I, do we not include the I? And it became a little bit of a gray area, so I love that you've brought it up and you've kind of brought that personal element to it in terms of why there, there is a little bit of tension there.

Yet the I is definitely [00:10:00] part of, part of the acronym. Did you wanna talk to that a bit more in terms of how that plays out? I guess So in terms of our inclusion in the, I, the guilt I guess, if you like, is a little bit around us. Use having a, a platform, to speak and share our story. Whether or not, though the rest of the acronym applies to us, and I'm not saying it doesn't apply to us.

Large number of I intersex people are, majority of intersex people I know, or a large number anyway, do identify as queer are sexually diverse or more diverse than me. Although, you know, still got 20 or 30 years of life, anything can happen. You heard it yet comfortable? Yeah. So there is certainly a platform.

So where, uh, yourself, Bree and, other members of our broader community might see me speak at conferences like Better Together or Health Indifference or listen to the radio show and so on and so forth. We would not as a community of intersex people with innate variations. Without that [00:11:00] platform, an opportunity to share our stories and raise awareness, it would've been a lot harder for us, for example, last week, to get legislation through the Victorian Parliament to make it unlawful for cosmetically inspired, unnecessary surgeries medically.

Un It's just, and I feel a little bit uncomfortable around that from my own personal perspective, but the other part of including the I, you know, we talk about. Use of the acronym, the use of flags. so when I go to those conferences, what frustrates me and often other members of my community is when a speaker has labeled the title of their talk using the full acronym, and then we get there and there is nothing about us.

At all. They're not working with our community, haven't engaged, haven't consulted, and so we might raise our hand and said, so you know, this is the title of your, talk or your presentation. What engagement have you had with the intersex [00:12:00] community? And they'll say, oh, we can't find it, or something, you know?

Obscure, and so we want the acronym to be used, apply to how it applies. So what I encourage speakers to do, and this is important for the, you know, the audience of this podcast to understand is be brave. Talk about at those presentations, say, look, we haven't put the eye in the acronym. The reason is we don't currently work with the intersex community.

We are more focused on trans and gender diverse, for example, or we are more focused on sexually diverse. We do realise that intersex people are as likely to be trans, you know, transgender or gender diverse or sexually diverse as the rest of the population. But our focus is on this. Yeah, we would really like to work if it's true.

Accurate, we more with the intersex community and it's wonderful that, you know, there are people in our audience who are talking at this conference about that, like, we'd like to do that more, but we also don't wanna provide a false narrative around the work we do. The other [00:13:00] thing is the intersex inclusive pride flag was named that indifference to the progress flag.

So the progress flag, as many of you will know, is the flag that includes sexually and gender diverse and also First Nations communities, but it doesn't include the intersex flag at the end. That's the one that was taken across, the one that doesn't include intersex that was carried across the Harbour Bridge during world pride.

So they, I even though there was intersex representation and talks and stuff at World Pride in Sydney, I was astonished to see the gigantic flag they used was the not intersex inclusive, progress flag. That which doesn't point to progress. But when, Valentina, who's a intersex person in Italy, created the intersex inclusive pride flag.

She made it very clear, and you can look up the history online. She's made it very clear that, she doesn't want it to be used by people who, aren't working with the intersex community. [00:14:00] She doesn't want it to be an umbrella flag that captures everyone just for the sake of capturing everyone.

She wants it to be an opportunity, a directive, if you like, for engagement. Consultation and working and bringing the insect community into the fold. So if people contact Valentina online, she won't provide the flag unless that organisation can demonstrate, not just say they're doing it, but demonstrate that they are working.

Inclusively with the intersex community, so it's a really strong point. . And so, you know, pride marches like I've marched down Fitzroy Street in Fitzroy for the last four, maybe five years. I carry an intersex flag, the Scouts Carry an intersex flag. They're the only two intersex flags I ever see among the possibly tens of thousands of marches.

If they're not working with us, that's probably a good thing. But one thing I saw this year, a couple of weeks ago, a few weeks ago for the march, was more [00:15:00] of the intersex inclusive. Pride flags. Being carried by hospitals and health centers and things like that but I think some of the corporates, they just don't know the difference.

Anyway, you know, we go do a talk to them or something, but you know, the first time I ever did a talk at a corporate was at the ANZ Bank in 2016. I'd only just heard the intersex word for the first time and then Accenture and things like that. So sometimes the work is being done, but there's a lack of kind of.

Understanding about, I guess the, the nutshell of all of that, is are you genuinely engaged or is your inclusion disingenuous, tokenistic? Are you confused? And if you are confused, then contact us. Yeah. Find out more. I'd love to kind of just spend some time, you mentioned that you found out you were intersex at 28 but didn't have that language for it, and I know that's still a challenge.

For many people who still don't, the word intersex is not necessarily owned. And [00:16:00] used by people who do have, variations around their correct sexual characteristics. Yeah. Could you talk a little bit to that and how that. Influenced, I guess, your life and, and how you see that playing out for others?

Well, yeah, it still plays out and I think it's part of fear or or fear of the assumptive thing I might said before, so we're invariably diagnosed. I mean, especially in gender diverse people are not diagnosed with having a condition. They didn't, they did, used to. Yep. Sadly, right. Psychologically, sadly, and in perhaps some parts of the world, they still are, but yeah.

You know, invariably these days, but because it's, we are biologically. Six, many of us, so my X XY is also known as Kleinfelter syndrome. Having X, Y, X chromosomes, but having a body that doesn't respond to the androgens produced, due to having the Y androgen insensitivity syndrome, there's a whole lot.

Again, if you go to, you know, [00:17:00] Wikipedia or wherever and look up intersex, you'll see a whole list of conditions, biological and terms in the past, and, in some areas still the same diseases of sex development or what we prefer differences of sex development. So the challenge for us is one, the depathologization of our community.

To not only promote. Acceptance in the wider community, but as you were kind of alluding to here, Bree acceptance of ourselves, of having naturally diverse human anatomies. It is a difficult one, therefore, when you do have, for example, support groups for people who have a condition. Such as with X, X, Y, it impacts our body development, our cognitive development learning.

So for example, as a young, young baby, I took longer for to be able to support my head as a baby. It took longer for me to be able to roll over, to crawl [00:18:00] to walk, and that is because having. X. Y. X chromosomes.  Kleinfelter causes hypotonia. Hypotonia, okay right so lack of musculature and so forth.

And it also causes cognitive challenges, so I mumbled, my speech was mumbled until kindergarten. When students in say, prep were required to read from the old red reader in the early seventies. I just, I had an intense fear. I haven't been hypnotically taken back there. It might be too traumatic, but my mum used to have to come up to the school and I would be taken out into the corridor and I apparently would mouth the words or whisper the words at the very most, and what we didn't know then.

Was that I was having difficulty reading. It was slow, and even to this day, if I read something from a book in here in my little library space here tomorrow, I won't. Or even in a few hours I won't remember. As I'm reading, I have to keep reading. Keep [00:19:00] flipping back. I just a habit of looking to see when the book went.

Or the chapter will end and in the end you just, don't bother. But these are all signposts of the cognitive and physical manifestations of having the chromosomes. And I have what was named by Harry Kleinfelter in 1942. You know, as a medical condition, so we've got all these support groups back to your question, which are supporting the community and the kids and so forth.

So, so suddenly this word intersex has been applied, which is part of a general sexually diverse loaded acronym. So imagine those same kids going to the school and suddenly. Being presented as being LGBTQA plus, it changes the framing on their existence, on who they are, their sense of self, the the other kids, and their sense of engagement.

It changes so much stuff, it's so loaded with assumptions. That a lot of people with innate [00:20:00] variations of sex characteristics don't wanna be associated with the word. And I went through that for a couple of years until I actually met the intersex community who embraced me as part of, you know, the space.

Really, the first time was 2017, that that happened. Which is the year that Darlington statement came out. But I wasn't part of that, but I was part of Darlington two, and we're about to have Darlington three where we get to revise and look back on the Darlington statement. So yes, darlingtonstatement.org au everyone.

So as you can hear that, that's definitely. It creates a sense of fear, that word. One of the, I very hard in the early parts of that time, 10 years ago, so around 2018, particularly 2017 and 2018, trying to encourage x, x, y people to understand that being intersex does not challenge who they are, not about them not being heterosexual.

It's not about them not being male , and must say some excess way [00:21:00] individuals live as women. Not because they're transgender too, by the way. Yeah. So I experienced a lot of lateral violence between members of, with my variation who. Do embrace the term intersection and those who don't.

I was right in the middle and there was this back and forth going on, basically saying you shouldn't know them and you shouldn't know them and you shouldn't support, and I kept all over the years. I always say I'm just, I would rather put all my energies into building bridges. I have no interest in maintaining broken relationships.

I just don't want to go there. It's wasted energy. So you can have that perspective, but my perspective is finding ways to connect. Yeah and as a result of that, there has been. Some movement say within people with my variation, but you know, it, Turner Syndrome or others, it's a place they can't go.

And I think that's fair enough. Yeah and it's not because they have anything against gender and sexually diverse people, it's just. [00:22:00] The fact, and it happens to me, as I said all the time, people assume that if you are intersex, that you are not. It was funny 'cause we just did a Midsummer Stand and next to us was the, queer Archive stand.

Oh yeah. At Midsummer in Melbourne. Yeah. And they had a sign saying, how dare you assume that I'm heterosexual.

And I thought, well that's an interesting perspective as well, isn't it? Yeah. 'cause I would therefore have a T-shirt saying, how dare you assume I'm not heterosexual. Yeah. Or assume I'm gay. Assumptions are the evil, aren't they? Like, thank you for talking us through that, because it just shows also the complexity around labels and terms and that they mean so much more than.

Than the word itself at times, and that they play out differently for different people. And you know, this is something that I'm always talking about. [00:23:00] People get to own their own terms and labels and identities and what works for them. Yeah. It's hard for me, I experience imposter syndrome a lot within, even at Joy.

Joy, 94.9. Yeah. If anyone wants to listen to my show this Thursday at 6:00 PM you know, I do. I'm at a queer event, I feel like I experienced imposter syndrome. and I actually just said to a, friend of mine who runs queer events who said, oh, you should come along, and I said, I really do.

Well, like it, Joy, if I've got a role, if I've got a volunteer role, , if you've got, if you need any assistance, I'll, I'll come along. 'cause it's, it's a way that I slowly can find my place. Otherwise I walk in and I think, oh no, not kind of my kinship mob, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating.

It's difficult., I can see the challenge that would be there and I'm sure there's people listening who can relate in different ways to that. Yeah. It's hard enough that I've just been told I have to learn a dance for Mardi Gras. It's like, oh God, [00:24:00] I didn't do that. Why did you go there to wear purple clothing?

So people can catch you, Paul, on Joy FM obviously on Thursday. And by the way, we don't say Joy FM, and, and it's only because there is a, Christian radio station , that is Joy fm. So people Google that, they might say, hang on, I didn't quite expect. So we just say Joy, 94.9, but yeah.

But that's all right. Yep. Yeah. And other places that they can find you. So I'm one of the Victorian representatives of, , intersex Peer Support Australia, which is our case support space. I'm also one of the directors of Interaction for Health and Human Rights, so interaction.org au. And I also want to direct people, not to find me, but to ilink.net.au

Because that is, our psychosocial support service for our community, peer led peer run. It's free for people with intersex variation to sex characteristics, but it's [00:25:00] also a resource hub. Great, so there's a lot of information on, on the interaction website as well, but the resource hub. At, ilink.au, is brilliant and there's appointment cards.

So, as you know, in the, in the DEI space, if you happen to be, say, in a medical or education space and you come across someone who doesn't appear to have much support, you can direct them to us in terms of where to find me. Well, you'd hardly know it, would you? But I'm a bit of a loner. But you can also, if you want me to come and speak to your teams, my lived experience site is spoken from the heart.com.au

And there's lots and lots of testimonials for wonderful people who I've spoken. I actually just recently spoke to the 40 Heads of Medicine at Western Health. Fantastic. Uh, about my lived experience and a little bit of, uh, you wouldn't think it was needed, but a little bit of intersex 101 spoken at councils.

Health centers, as I say, corporates, over those 10 years, I've been a little bit busy, but I want to be busier [00:26:00] people. I wanna be busier. Well, we'll put those details on the show notes, so we'll capture all of that. Yeah. And put it on the show notes. Yeah, no worries. All right. Enough of the, self-promoted, no.

Think, no. I think it's really important. That's what this podcast is about, linking people up and Yeah, i'm sure there'll be people reaching out. And also, maybe we'll get you to jump on again because. We're out of time, but I have lots more questions for you, so let's grab another time. Yeah, no worries.

If it works for you. Yeah, no, I look forward to it, Bree, that'd be absolutely fantastic. Thanks for the opportunity. Thank you so much, and thanks everybody for listening in, and as always, you know, please share any thoughts, comments, questions with me, particularly if you've got guests or other topics that you'd like us to cover on the podcast.

Yeah, I should just say that this is the radio show. We're on social, so the INS on Instagram and Facebook, but if anyone does want to get in contact with me, uh, you can send me an email to prosperouspear@gmail.com because people with my variation born with pear shaped [00:27:00] bodies and I'm prospering beyond that.

Love it. As you can say, I even have a degree. Yay. You can see that. It stuck in the back there. Yep. Yeah. Alright. Thanks everybody for listening in. Thanks Paul. Cheers.

Well, that's it for today's episode of DEI Will Not Die, want more Resources and support to do the work? Well, why don't you visit breegorman.com and don't forget to follow or share this episode with someone who cares and maybe also someone who should.