[00:00:00] Is DEI dead? Not even close. I’m Bree Gorman and this is DEI Will Not Die the podcast for people doing the real work of inclusion. Whether you are leading a team shaping DEI strategy or just trying to make change that lasts. You’re in the right place. We will cut through the fluff and dig into practical insights that will help you lead with clarity, courage, and impact.

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Well, welcome to another episode of DEI Will Not Die. I am coming to you again from Wadawurrung country. The land that I have the privilege of living, working, and playing on that land that I wholly recognise is and always will be Aboriginal land. And I pay respects to [00:01:00] elders past and present, and if we’ve got any Aboriginal Torres Strait Islanders listening to us or First Nations people from across the globe already we’re getting some, some listeners from abroad.

So that’s fantastic to hear. Today, I’m gonna have a conversation with my dear friendand peer Teresa, who has been kind of alongside me on this journey of my business, Teresa, has worked within my business, but also is a constant source of information and venting space for me in the work. And we just wanna have a good conversation today about the topic.

Which is performative versus transformative, DEI. And yes, that title was beautifully created by ChatGPT. A tool that both Teresa and I love and talk about regularly. But what a cool topic, right? Because everybody, when you say, what do you not wanna see in [00:02:00] DEI? They say, oh, I don’t wanna see tokenism, I don’t wanna see performative DEI.

But what do they even mean by that? Because I’ve found many people who say that themselves are actually doing performative DEI. So, so let’s get into the topic, but before we do Teresa as a DEI leader. Welcome to the podcast. did you wanna do any further introduction of yourself before we get started?

Thanks Bree. I’m always excited to talk to you about anything DEI related. I will just briefly introduce that. As you said, my name’s Teresa. I use she her pronouns, and I also would like to acknowledge that today I am on beautiful bunurong country, which is where I live, predominantly work and play as well.

So thanks for having me, Bree. Uh, no. Good. I’m glad we could continue our morning conversation into this chat today. Um, so let’s talk about performative DEI then. Let’s get straight into it. What does it look like to [00:03:00] you? Have you got like some cool examples? I know I’ve got a few to share, but what are your thoughts around what it actually looks like?

What are we talking about? Yeah, if I was going to sort of briefly summarise it, it’s style with no substance. It, it’s throwing up a, a poster or changing your logo to a rainbow logo during June to signify that you’re, you know, with the LGBTQIA+ community. It’s doing stuff, uh, on during reconciliation week.

It, it’s having the things that people expect you to have, but actually doing none of the work to change what upholds those systems and structures that create disadvantage and allow people to sort of still stay at a distance. So I think that for me, that’s what I, when I’m talking about performative DEI I’m talking about, you’re saying all the right things.

You’re, you’re putting up the right visuals, but there’s no real work being [00:04:00] done to change the system, to disrupt the way things have always been done, and to actually create inclusive spaces and, and safe places for people to come. Yeah, I’d love to jump off that ’cause there’s a few that come to mind.

Just last week I was reviewing some websites of a particular industry, like a bunch of organisations in a particular industry to see what kind of DEI information they were putting out there. And there were these like. Great grandiose statements. We foster an inclusive environment, we celebrate and value diversity, and then you’d go and look into the detail of the website and they might have like a specific page about LGBTQIA+ inclusion and a link for gender affirmation procedures.

And it would say, coming soon, like, like the substance as you say, just wasn’t there even visually, let alone what would be happening behind the scenes? Those, those generic statements [00:05:00] of we value an inclusive environment. Like what does that really mean? Hmm. Yep. Uh, and I think sometimes it means we value an inclusive environment that allows me to feel included and people like me maybe.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s, that’s such a good framing. I’ve got a couple of list of things here. Rainbow lanyards. Yep. I’m supportive of rainbows. Let’s put them around. It creates a sense of safety, sometimes perceived, sometimes real. But I’ll go to a reception, like a, say a medical organisation go up to the receptionist is wearing a rainbow lanyard.

And then she calls me lady, or

she uses some kind of gendered language, right? Yeah. Like I had a friend tell me that they once were going to the bathroom and there was a person in front of ’em wearing a rainbow lanyard. And as they went to go into the bathroom, this person in the lanyard said, oh, the men’s toilets are [00:06:00] down the hall.

Yeah, that’s performative to me. Don’t wear that lanyard. We all make mistakes, but don’t wear that lanyard if you’re not actually, yeah, doing the work. Agree, as you said, I think signs and symbols of inclusion are critical. They’re a part of doing the work well, but behind the sign needs to be someone needs to have done the work.

So you need to, if you are wearing a rainbow lanyard, that’s a privilege to be able to wear that, that there’s a responsibility that comes with wearing that. There’s, you have to do the deep work and, and know what it is that you are showcasing or highlighting by wearing that symbol. Because you’ve done the work and that you know how to create the safety and the, the welcoming space and you know, you’re thinking about things like gendered language and all of those sorts of things.

Then maybe put on a rainbow lanyard because the substances there, it’s not just about painting things in pretty colors. [00:07:00] Yeah. Yeah. Have you got some other examples of where you’ve seen something that’s clearly performative? You know, I think I see it on LinkedIn every time around a day of significance or recognition.

June’s an easy one. Everyone’s throwing out Pride month. Uh, what I’m finding really interesting recently is in July where it’s Disability Pride month, there’s starting to be more conversation, which I think is fantastic because I feel like Disability inclusion has been, you know, forgotten along the way for a very long time.

Mm-hmm. So it’s great that the conversations are starting, but I know that the organisations that are posting things about Disability inclusion, so many of them are not doing the work to create inclusive spaces and having to hear. When you go to an organisation having to hear things like, oh, the building’s old, and we don’t have [00:08:00] accessible access, and things like that.

Okay, well then stop talking about being disability inclusive because actually you’ve done none of the work and you’ve not even thought about the way in which people are going to move around the spaces that you’ve got. Mm. That reminds me of a client org where I was doing a focus group with people who had disability and they were describing the inequity in having access to the flexible working policy.

So this organisation, on the surface, looked fantastic. ’cause they actually had a workplace adjustments policy that was standalone and looked like. It was quite good. Right? And they had a good flexible working policy as well. But if you had a disability, you weren’t to access a flexible working policy, you had to access the workplace adjustments policy, and that required a medical certificate.

Oh, annually. So every year if you had a disability and you just wanted to work flexibly. [00:09:00] You had to provide a medical certificate, yet your colleagues who are accessing flexibility, because they were parents, didn’t have to provide any evidence that they had a child. Right. So, so I think it’s that too, like and in that case, is it performative?

I’m not sure because the policies were really actually quite good. But it was the implementation. Of those policies that was creating the inequity, should anybody, should have been now able to access the flexible working policy without a medical certificate or needing, needing to call it an adjustment.

Yeah, because you have a disability. I mean, the fact that you had to access. A very different, I mean, flexible work is flexible work. It just shouldn’t matter who you are or there should be no caveat to that. Mm. So why you access flexible work again? Like just access. Yeah, access. Flexible work. It’s not a reasonable adjustment to work flexibly.

That’s just how, how the world is these days. I think. Yeah. Yep. And might soon, [00:10:00] well, not flexible, but working two days from home might soon become law in our state, at least in the state of Victoria. Can we move on just a little bit? Do you think that performative DEI is a reflection of ill intent or poor intent, or is it a reflection of lack of knowledge and understanding of the topic?

Uh, I think it can be a little from column A, a little from column B. Yeah. Um, I certainly know that in more recent times, Victoria has done a lot of really great. Initiatives or created a lot of great initiatives for, um, inclusion more broadly with the welcoming of commissioners for LGBTQIA+ communities and gender equity.

The Yuk Justice Commission has been doing a lot of work and, and treaties happening. So I think that has forced, and legislation often forces the hand of [00:11:00] organisations. And so with that comes. Then, you know, potentially two pathways. One is the, oh gosh, we are now being forced to do this, or we’ve gotta do something quick.

Someone get up a, a flag or a poster or, you know, throw your pronouns on an email. And so it sort of forces their hand. And then, and, and that can really lead to performance sort of measures being put in place. And then there’s the other side of it, which are the people who now, because legislation mandates it, finally they’ve got something they can hold onto and say, well, we have to do this, so let’s do it.

And they’ve got something to support them. And you know, like progress things. And if your organisation’s large enough. You. What you’ll find is that there is people in both camps, there’ll be people who want to do the work because they know that it’s really critical [00:12:00] and important. And then there’ll be other people who will have, you’ll have to drag kicking and screaming into, into the work.

So I always feel like at some point it starts off. Potentially performative, but when the momentum builds, that can actually be a catalyst to create real change. But it’s a hard thing. And the best example of that is about 10 years ago, the Victorian water authorities were mandated to have 50 50. So 50% male and 50% female representation on their boards.

And so all boards were sacked and the process to build the boards back started and that meant that there had to be a gender balance of 50 50. Gender representation. Now at the time. The usual rhetoric came out, oh, we’ve always just hired the right people for the job and the most qualified people for the job.

And you know, [00:13:00] all the things that come out from affirmative action. That’s typically what happens. And over the last 10 years, what we’ve now seen is really great representation on boards across Victorian water authorities and the improvement and change in the dynamics and the structure. Of the executive teams and the teams that sit under those boards, which there was never a mandate for those to change, but because the most senior leadership in those organisations changed, that actually had a huge impact.

So I’d argue that it, initially, it was very performative and it felt really uncomfortable for a lot of people. Although I’m a. A big believer in affirmative action. I think it’s the only thing that ever changes, changes the dynamic, you know, in a powerful, meaningful way. But it does feel really uncomfortable and performative in the beginning until it becomes normal and until it becomes something that people are just used to.

And then you [00:14:00] see changes in other areas. Yeah, that’s a really good example and I’d forgotten about those origins and I work with quite a few clients from the water industry and, and there is, there’s this thing about that industry that is sitting ahead of the pack and maybe listeners might have a different perspective and you know, please feel free to share that with us.

But certainly the clients that I’ve worked with, they, there really is a, a quite a drive and momentum around. Their inclusion work and yeah, it’s interesting to, now that you say that, to reflect on how that might’ve been, you know how that might’ve originated, and I don’t like what you’re saying, like this idea that sometimes it starts performative.

And then can grow into something more. And you see that too. Like if you think about when organisations actually create, start doing a lot of work around their complaints processes, and create an environment where people do start to trust [00:15:00] the complaints process, start to access it, feel like they can actually raise concerns.

And you know, for an initial period, that organisation looks like it’s gone backwards because all of a sudden they’ve got these complaints about harassment and discrimination that they hadn’t received before. And then a lot of noise starts gathering and you get the resistance group kind of creating a lot of noise as well.

But that’s kind of part of the work that then creates the better environment, I suppose. It’s not completely related to what you were talking about, but I like this idea that it can start performative and perhaps end up in a more transformative space. I think the way, um, the important part of the way in which you move from performative to transformative.

And in those cases that I was talking about where performance comes from a mandate or you know, someone’s had their hand forced to take action, the way you move from [00:16:00] that to real transformation has to be leadership led because you’ll find that there’s typically a grassroots people, people at a coalface level really do want to do the work, they wanna make the change, or there’s certainly a cohort of people that do wanna make the change, even if it’s not across the whole organisation.

But until there is leadership buy-in. Resources are allocated, times allocated. People are speaking about a commitment. Nothing really moves from performative to transformative because it’s typically you’ve got no money, no time, no people to do the work. But could you just make sure that you know, we’ve got a rainbow up or we’ve got a, an Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander flag or any other sort of symbol and that, that’s about all we are gonna do now because, you know, we don’t have the time.

Well, we’ll get to it later. So I think [00:17:00] unless there’s real leadership buy-in, it’s very, very hard to move the needle. Mm. And that segues nicely into what I was thinking about, you know, talking about next is what does transformative DEI look like? Like how do we tell the difference? Obviously we see leaders engaged and I would say held accountable for their role in the work, but what other things do you look for if you were looking to see whether an organisation was, you know, doing the real work?

How many people are involved? Is it just one DEI practitioner who is tasked with doing all the work and organising the days of celebration? Or when you walk into any office, talk to any person in that organisation are they living and breathing the values? As well, like, yeah. Is it obvious when you meet every person, is it just the DEI person who introduces their pronouns when they’re, when they’re working and [00:18:00] acknowledge country, or is that just something that is a part of the way in which we do things at our organisation or you know, in our teams are people picking up a piece of paper and reading an acknowledgement of country because that was what was written and that’s the only thing. We only know how to, um, how to read the acknowledgement of country or people really deeply thinking about why it’s so beautiful and such a privilege to be able to acknowledge country.

It’s certainly here in Australia. And I think that’s, that’s what I really look for is like how embedded into the work is it? How many times are people saying to you and being really honest and saying, we haven’t got it right, but we are working really hard to get it right. And how are mistakes handled and managed, and are people making mistakes because as you said with the example of complaints and feedback processes. Actually, sometimes you wanna see an increase in [00:19:00] complaints. Sometimes you wanna see an increase in the number of mistakes that people are making in the DEI space because when you make mistakes, that’s how often we’ll learn. And I always say making mistakes is not a problem.

How you respond to having made that mistake, that is everything. Getting it wrong, right? Is like, yeah, it’s everything. So that, that, that’s what I’d be looking for, how people responDEIng when they get it wrong. What’s happening? Yeah, that’s that psychological safety piece that at the moment we see in many organisations is being handled quite separately from the DEI work, and I just can’t understand this.

It is so intertwined and so they are so vital in each other that. I can’t understand why sometimes this work is set so separately. Yeah. Yep. Psychological safety is what it’s about. That it’s okay to disagree, it’s [00:20:00] okay to get things wrong, but as you say, there’s also then that environment where we challenge each other to be better.

And we’re not gonna keep making those mistakes. We’re actually doing something meaningful about it. If I’m looking for trans organisations that are really serious about the DEI, yeah, I wanna see, I wanna see things like when I look at their job ads for their leaders, that it, one of the selection criteria is actually inclusive leadership.

Yeah. And sometimes when I say this in spaces, people still see that as like, oh wow. Why? How would we do that? Like, what do you mean? This is to me quite basic level stuff, and if you make that part of your selection criteria, then you’re saying from the very beginning that this is what we value, and not only value, but we respect it as a skill.

Yeah. That needs to be demonstrated regularly, and that’s how we get our work done. I wanna see plans that have actually been implemented. Now, I would say it is incredibly rare to see a DEI plan on [00:21:00] a website that actually also says what it’s achieved within that plan so far. We just have the plans and you know, clients will come wanting the next plan.

And so we’re ready to refresh ’cause this one has expired. And I’ll say, great, show me the progress that happened on the last plan. And they just don’t have it because they haven’t done it, but they certainly haven’t created it in a form where they’re communicating the progress that they’ve made. And I think.

We need to be open and honest and transparent about how we’re doing the work, what didn’t work, what we stopped, and what we tried instead, and how that worked. And that’s not always easy to see, but it’s certainly something that we can ask for from organisations. All right. This is a little bit, it’s on topic and perhaps off topic, depends where you take it.

One thing you wish every org would stop doing. Just one thing,

I’m gonna hold you to it. Thank you. Dare too. Okay. One thing, my biggest [00:22:00] pet peeve would have to be organisations who ask for people with lived experience to come and advise and participate and provide feedback and knowledge and skills, and don’t pay them. We absolutely need lived experience voices at the heart of everything.

We do nothing about us without us. It’s critical, but nothing frustrates me more, and I don’t advocate for anything more strongly than when we ask those voices, invite those voices into the space that we are, remunerating them, not with a gift card, not with a branded mug or you know, something equally ridiculous, but that we’re actually paying them for their time, for their experience, for their knowledge, and for their [00:23:00] willingness to share with us and help us learn like that’s valuable.

That’s. And I think that kind of leads on to when we are bringing people in, even if it’s in identified roles, specifically identified roles, or we’re bringing someone in and we’re saying, oh, this person has an aspect of their identity that we think is gonna be valuable, pay for that. Don’t just give them the stock standard amount of money that.

Anybody would get for that role. If you are also seeing the value that someone’s bringing, in my view, that’s the equivalent of a master’s degree. Pay for it. That’s the someone’s life experience is so valuable and you think it’s valuable as an organisation then remunerate people for that. Mm. Okay. That’s, that’s a good one.

I do think there’s some circumstances where people prefer gift cards. Uh, yes, but, or let it be their choice, though. [00:24:00] Let it be their choice. Yeah, exactly. You know, I did some work with some an ERG, like an organisation that had a whole network of ERGs. It was like 13 of them or something, and we actually asked the participants how they wanted to be valued and remunerated if that was the case. And they were very clear with what they wanted, and some were quite different from the others. Some wanted access to professional development, and that’s why they had signed up for the role. Others, yep. Wanted specific time etched out from their roles each week that they could do it.

So they needed like backfill for their roles or whatever it is. Let’s absolutely like, let’s provide it. And especially if we’re bringing people in from outside our organisation, like yeah, 100% that is a paid gig. Just like we would pay an accountant. I know you and I have talked about it a few times. The amount of times we get asked to speak on a topic or bring our [00:25:00] expertise or lived experience.

And I’m not talking about small organisations, and you and I have have done this for some larger organisations that are national bodies or whatever, and they say, oh, we don’t pay our speakers. Or there’s no money to pay the speakers. And I think yeah, you are charging your people where if it’s at a conference, people are paying to be in that room.

Yeah. If you do not see that, and, and we are talking about DEI specific conferences or DEI specific topics at a conference, if you really mean what you say and the reason you are bringing me into this space is to have, have a voice that’s probably not in the space already. Well then pay for that. You know, don’t just expect me to turn up for free because it’s good.

It’s good opportunity to get my brand out there. 100%, that’s ridiculous.. Yes, 100%. You’re paying everybody else. Why aren’t you paying the person that people are coming to listen to. [00:26:00] It’s just wild. Um, yeah. Gosh. I think we could have a whole episode on that and maybe we do. I know we’re kind of out of time and I, you know, knew that we would just be able to have a brilliant chat.

On here, DEI is not dead. It is absolutely adapting and changing and matching what’s required of the times. And Teresa, we will definitely have you on again, to the listeners, please. You know, if you’re watching on YouTube or, or maybe you’ve grabbed a snippet of this on LinkedIn. Please send us some comments and some questions and Teresa and I can kind of get back to you and we can continue the conversation.

Thanks again for coming on and having a chat and I’m sure you’ll be back. Thanks as always. If you’ll cup. Yeah.

Well, that’s it for today’s episode of DEI Will Not Die. Want more resources and support to do the work? Well, why don’t you [00:27:00] visit Breegorman.com and don’t forget to follow or share this episode with someone who cares, and maybe also someone who should.