Why DEI Demands More Than Compliance
About this Episode
In this episode of DEI Will Not DIE, Dr Bree Gorman is joined by gender equality and leadership expert Michelle Redfern to explore what it really takes to close the gender leadership gap in a world where DEI is influenced by global politics, shifting expectations and organisational pressure.
Bree and Michelle unpack why compliance alone will never deliver meaningful change and why genuine, intersectional, system-level work is the only path forward. Michelle brings her trademark clarity, calling out the excuses organisations use, the risks multinationals face, and the real danger of relying on targets without providing the resources they need to make them work.
This conversation pushes past slogans and quick wins. Bree and Michelle explore what it means to be on the “right side of history”, how visibility can shift culture, and why DEI practitioners sit in the crucial space between legislation and action.
What You'll Learn
Risks and realities for multinationals balancing DEI work across global political climates.
Why DEI fails when organisations rely on “hope” instead of people, time and budget
The power of visibility and representation as a low-cost, high-impact lever
Resources Mentioned
Keep Learning & Connect With Bree
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[00:00:00] Is DEI dead? Not even close. I'm Bree Gorman and this is DEI Will Not Die the podcast for people doing the real work of inclusion. Whether you are leading a team shaping DEI strategy or just trying to make change that lasts. You're in the right place. We will cut through the fluff and dig into practical insights that will help you lead with clarity, courage, and impact.
Want more tools and support head to breegorman.com
Well thank you and welcome for listening again into DEI Will Not Die. I'm coming to you from Wadderang Country where it is apparently. At the start of summer, but it hasn't really been anything like spring or summer. I think we've missed spring, and I'm hoping summer is on its way because the [00:01:00] cricket fields are wet and the delays are getting frustrating, so.
That's the experience of Wadderang Country at the moment, but I wanna pay my respects to elders past and present, and a call out to any Aboriginal Torres Strait Islanders who do listen in to the podcast. I've got another guest episode today. I've got an incredible guest that many of you will be familiar with.
I've been absorbing Michelle's content for a long time, probably since I started in this work and learned so much and I'm so like blessed and privileged that you have decided to come on and, and have a chat with me on the podcast. So, Michelle, would you like to, maybe just introduce yourself a little bit for those who aren't familiar with you and maybe acknowledge country that you're on today?
Will do. Thanks Bree. Thanks for having me. So Michelle Redfern is my name, my pronouns are she/her. I am in Naarm, which is the traditional name for Melbourne. I actually live in the Naarm CBD, which is Wurundjeri Country. And uh, I am [00:02:00] super, super proud and very, very privileged to be living, learning and working on this land, which has been looked after for 65,000 years.
By the oldest living continuous culture in the world. And what I do, well, I do, my mission is to close the global leadership gender gap. And I do that in a few different ways, but in the the three kind of pillars of work, fix the system. Help women navigate the system and then advocate very loudly for women's rights.
And I do wanna make a, a very clear call out that when I say women, it's an inclusive, intersectional definition of women. So all of. All of my women out there, my, um, women, non-binary, gender diverse trans women, women of colour, first nations women, disabled women, and of course women from my own community, uh, more broadly are lg, well, the rainbow community.
'cause I always muck up the letters. I'm a very bad gay person. So [00:03:00] there you go. That's me. So, yeah, the first guest who's introduced themselves is a very bad gay person, and I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, yeah. One of my friends said it to me a long time. She was like, you're the worst lesbian. I know, I know.
Shocking, can't remember things, but anyway. Can't remember the things we're here and we're queer. Um, I remember, what's important. I I'd like to think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. No, brilliant. Thank you for that, and I certainly have connected over the years in a lot of your content around that, fixing the systems perspective and, and certainly have, have learned from you and that's informed the work that I do as well.
I'd love us to just kind of have a broad ranging conversation about the state of DEI feel like that's the mood I'm in today and it seems like you're willing to go with me on it and I don't wanna. I don't even want to talk about US politics or, or where things are happening across the world, but just in terms of what we are seeing in organisations at the moment, within that context and outside of that [00:04:00] context, I guess.
So if we think about. Momentum, like where are you seeing momentum now in DEI and what do you make of the direction, I guess, that organisations are heading in this space? Hmm. I think geography is important. When we, we talk about DEI, Bree, because there actually is no ignoring us politics because it does.
Mm. Cast appalled, depending on, on which side of the, of the equation you're on. But it certainly does cast its shadow over so many things structurally in society across the world. So I think when we talk about DEI and in, in an organisational sense, so we're, you know, perhaps you and I spend a fair bit of our time helping organisations think.
More deeply and strategically about getting done. I see a difference between those organisations which are domiciled and headquartered in Australia versus domiciled and headquartered in, you know, the, the USA or other [00:05:00] jurisdictions. Mm-hmm. So geography does play a part to a degree, what I am seeing. So if I put my, you know, Australian.
Clients and organisational hat on. You know, there, there's no doubt that we have a very strong legislative framework, albeit very focused on gender. Mm-hmm. Right now, not so much on all of the other layers of identity. We have a very strong legislative layer, which is, you know, arguably strengthening or becoming more bureaucratic.
Again, depending on your perspective, which sets the pace. For a lot of the work that goes on in organisations. So what am I seeing? I am seeing focus, a continued focus on gender and being workplace, gender equality, agency compliant. And I think there's a difference between compliant and true believers.
Mm-hmm. But I'm also seeing, which has been really heartening for me, and I think, you know, I think birds of be feather flock [00:06:00] together sometimes. So I, I'm, I'm delighted with the clients that I do have. I'd like to hope that they're delighted with me too. But we do, I do have a no dickheads rule in my life, and that includes when it comes to clients.
So , I'm actually, I'm done pushing on closed doors. So I work with clients who actually really want me there, who really want my two comms and, and all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, I, I think I am, I, I have a bias towards those organisations which wanna be on the right side of history. Mm. And certainly a conversation I had with.
A male CEO earlier this year when I said, what's the lay of the land? What are you feeling? What? What should we be on the lookout for? What does the next three or four years look like? And he just said to me, bottom line is Michelle, full steam ahead. We want to be on the right side of history. This is just one of those things.
And whilst we have. Some operations, some clients, customers and markets in the us. We also have a very strong shareholder base here that is very clear about the direction they, [00:07:00] they want our company to go in and they see our growth objectives absolutely supported by and enabled by all of our DEI objectives.
So, you know, you've got two structural things there, Brie around legislative, but also the shareholder. The owners, yeah, what are the owners of the company? Where are the shareholders playing and not playing and being serious and not serious? 'cause frankly, the old saying, the fish rots from the top, is absolutely true.
And when the owners say, this is the direction we're going in, that's the direction we're going in. So I think that's a, that's what I'm seeing generally. Multinationals, it's a mixed bag. One of my clients started off very strong and they, Australia is often a bit of an outpost of, or grouped in with other geographies, but an outpost of the US and certainly one of my clients had a, we're full steam ahead, Michelle, where we are going, you know, that us have just said, keep going, don't worry.
But then that's kind of come to [00:08:00] a, a little, not a skidding halt, but a. We have to, we have to lower our heads a bit here. We have to be smart , got some signals, and some budgetary constraints now because DEI line items on the p and l are being scrutinised at every level. And also it's an organisation, you know, without reaching confidentiality that has large.
Government contracts throughout the US and there are pretty severe implications for those kind of companies if, if they become a very visible champion, they become a catalyst or a lightning rod for. You suck. Um, and you know, we are gonna pick on you now. Yeah. So it, it, that's a long way of saying it's a mixed bag and very much dependent on geography.
Mm. I'd love to explore that, what you alluded to around this legislative. Requirements currently in the Australian [00:09:00] context and the type of behaviors that that's generating and also interested in just your thoughts around, um, where it's directing attention and whether that is in a good direction or, or needs a bit of an adjustment.
Look, I, think. I've always said, now, if we wanna bring it right back to, you know, quotas, gender quotas has always been that, oh, we don't want quotas, we do want quotas. And it's been, this, this, again, a lightning rod. I, I have always said we must have quotas, targets. Same dog, different legation, whatever you wanna call it.
Yeah, but you can't just have them on their on, on their own. That because they become a blunt instrument that then gives opportunity for failure to occur and they, we'll see. It doesn't work, so. Mm-hmm. I think any strengthening of legislative obligations provides the guardrails, but without the enablement.
Without the deep, deep, [00:10:00] deep understanding of what it takes to create a workplace that really works for every human. We are going to have fallout and we are going to have the, the companies, the people who chase compliance or who chase a certification who you know, and that's a one and done for me, that's not, that's not deep cultural evolution.
'cause it's evolution. It's not just change, it's evolution. So I think there's a real danger and you know, people like you and I, frankly we are the solution in that being the, you've got the legislation here, the company that wants to do the right thing, and we've got the translators and the enablers like you and I in between who can say, this is what this means, this is how to go deeper.
This is how to be really genuine about what it is that we are doing. Yeah, I'm really heartened. Particularly around the last, in fact, the current two conversations I'm having, uh, with some of my biggest clients, um, [00:11:00] who are really serious are. We have to set targets we, 'cause we've got, we've got more than 500 employees, so we have to set three new targets next year, Michelle.
We don't just wanna tick a box, tell us how to do it. Mm. And I said, okay. So we need to be really smart and serious and genuine about what is really going to provide that, that sustainable evolution over time. Not just, you know, we're gonna have this number of women in this amount of things. So I think, you know, again.
It requires more than just ticking a box, setting a target, and hoping like hell that we get there. But there's also a lack of intersectionality in all of it. Mm-hmm. You know, no surprise, women are not one homogenous group, and I get it that we don't have as much data as well could get it, but we, in terms of at a societal level, don't have necessarily easily available data to help inform people about, you [00:12:00] know, what's the lived experience of?
Well, me. So I'm a 60-year-old white woman who's gay., who's educated. So there are absolute, there are barriers to my, my participation. It might be my gender, it might be my age, it might be my sexuality or my sexual identity. I tell you what, there's also a hell of a lot of open doors for me. I'm white, I'm older, and people, oh, of course she's old.
She must know what she's talking about. You know? So, but those nuances, but the understanding of intersectionality is really. I would say still on the very, very immature side, apart from practitioners, and let's face it, we need to not be immature about that. But I think there's a danger in Australia hanging all of its hat on gender in this period of time and perhaps forgetting about all of the other identities.
That we need to make sure that we are thinking [00:13:00] about and considering when we wanna create workplaces that work for every human. Mm-hmm. It's, it's complicated as always, but you know, you can't legislate everything. No, and I like the way you've kind of taken us through that, you know, there's, there's potentially benefits to this if done well.
Yes. And also, you know, I wonder when we talk about being on the right side of history, I wonder the reflection on these really strong, singularly focused gender equity type initiatives and how that, how we will look back on those. You know, Bree I, remember when I still worked at the NAB, a new chief people officer started and this person said that that's it.
Everything's out except gender. 'cause if you get it right for women, you get it right for everyone. Mm-hmm. And at the time I went, oh wow. And now I was also the chair of the NAB nobility, which was NAB's disability, ERG, something that I'm [00:14:00] still is. Such a shaping experience for my life anyway. And I went, oh, but what she failed to put in there is if you take an intersectional approach to gender, there's a better than average chance that you're gonna scoop up a whole range of things.
Mm-hmm. And issues and barriers and opportunities for people with different identities. Now, that again is saying, you know, is a. Is a First Nations man and a First Nations women's lived experience the same. And of course it's not. And I, I would never wanna, never wanna proclaim that, but you've got a halfway better chance of getting it right for First Nations people if you are taking an intersectional approach to your gender equity plan.
Mm-hmm. And that, that is what I don't see universally. And what I do see is, well, of course we can't focus on everything Michelle. Actually you can, because you actually do it in your business anyway. [00:15:00] You don't just have one product. You don't just have one, revenue line, you don't have one division.
You've got, you've got multiple competing priorities going on at any given time when you run a business. So I reckon you just might be able to stretch beyond. White women promoted, let's give it a go. And you know what? It'll probably save you work. Yeah, totally. Totally. That's what I find so frustrating.
I'm like, you've got four different employee resource groups all working on recruitment. Oh my God. Yeah. Come on, let's bring that work together and. Hmm. And I think there's a, that's a real, you know, if, if your, listeners watch observers, I want to take anything from this. Two things, or one thing that I have seen work extraordinarily well in, in a couple of my different client groups is the internal.
So I sit on one of the, the organisation's internal equity board. The equity board sits above all of [00:16:00] the ERGs, the DEI manager, et cetera, and we come together as part of the governance and oversight cadence for that organisation to make sure everyone's lined up and aligned, using finite resources really well, not duplicating work, not letting things slip through the cracks, but also taking a completely intersectional approach across the whole year.
And it's. So, so good, and it's a really simple thing to do. Mm-hmm. Once a quarter, and it just means everyone knows exactly what everyone else is doing. And we can all line the ducks up and get them quacking. Mm. And they're, oh, you are working on recruitment too. Okay. Well let's just two of us work on recruitment and we'll bring the rest back to the, equity board.
You know, to your point, instead of that duplication. We've got the use of what is volunteer labor. Mm. Because not a lot of, not a lot of places are paying people any extra or making allowances for them to be active in employee [00:17:00] resource groups. So how do we best use that really rich experience and frankly, arms and legs to have an impact rather than.
Kind of the, well, I'm using duck analogies, the one legged duck swimming in a circle, so, yeah. Yeah. Real opportunity there. Give that the title it's, it's about the ducks. It's about the ducks. Yes. I'm interested and I'm loving this conversation, but I did wanna ask you around what you think gets forgotten.
I work, and I don't mean equity group, you know, we're not having that kind of conversation, but what kind of actions or foundational actions do you think get forgotten by organisations resourcing? Yeah, great. Honestly, there's, and I was talking to my wife yesterday. I said, deep breath, doing this wonderful work, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm just worried that, there's no resource to get [00:18:00] this done, no resource. Mm-hmm. So resourcing is not there. We honestly, Bree, I probably like you, I've created some absolutely wonderful strategies, some beautiful blueprints, lovely rollout plans, and I've seen less of them come to life because it's, oh, we're so busy.
Look, things have just got in the way this quarter, Michelle. Or look, it's big, big time in the business, blah, blah, blah. So for me it's, it's, you can put whatever you like into it. Um, and my advice is to, to clients don't try and solve world hunger in 12 months. Mm-hmm. Do one thing, go just one, I go, just do one thing really, really well.
Well, so, but, but what's the resourcing required? Who are the people? What's the time and what's the money going to be needed to make this happen and where's it all coming from? Mm-hmm. That is the thing that gets forgotten. Yeah. Time and time again. Can that we can talk about all the other bits. Oh, it's frustrating because I know that the people are wanting to see the [00:19:00] outcomes and impact you, the board and the executive team, they'll go, well, why didn't this happen?
Because someone hoped and wished. And maybe they prayed to whoever that this was gonna happen, but who's gonna do it? Mm-hmm. Who's gonna do it? And in the context of the current. Four years, let's call it, you know, the, the fall of the DEI manager, um, the downscaling of all the absorption into wellbeing programs or being called a different name, which is code for, well, let's just load everything into HR and hope like hell, it gets done.
Mm. Um, so, so resourcing is the thing that gets forgotten by. Yeah, I, yeah, I couldn't agree harder. And the legislative frameworks and the, I guess the movement, the momentum to create these DEI strategies and to, you know, in some organisations actually do the meaningful consultation to get the stuff, but all of that bit is sorted and planned and resourced.
But then once the plan [00:20:00] starts, we never quite thought beyond. How are we gonna support this work? And I always find it really fascinating. I remember having a deep conversation with a potential client who was insisting that all of the work that had been suggested by the consultation had to show up in the plan because that's what the people had wanted and we have to recognise that they want, and they had a list of 80 actions.
Wow. I said, there's no chance, you can complete this, it's impossible. And it loses trust and then loses me. It actually makes us worse off than where we were before we even had the plan in place. If we don't do it, do what we said we were gonna do. And similarly, when I have had a chair of a board say, well Michelle, how, how much faster can we go?
And I said, would you like evolution or revolution? 'cause they're two different strategies and they require some, some things. Oh. I said, this is what revolution looks like. And and I started, they'd be, oh no. I said, okay, so we're evolution. Oh, [00:21:00] but we'd like to go a bit faster. I said, alright then. So which lever do we pull here?
'cause this is running a business, right? Yeah. This is exactly like any other part of the business. Mm-hmm. Anyone time. People money..Mm-hmm. We've gotta have all three. Yeah. So where are we getting them from? Mm. I don't know what. Mm-hmm. Okay. So let's, let's get real then about these conversations. Love it.
Final question. I know you do a lot of work in the sports space and I'm interested what you think is going well in sport that could perhaps translate into organisational DEI so that the very first time I asked. Well, I asked myself that question because I had had such a brilliant experience in sport. I went, oh, how could I make this happen in corporate?
Then I realised a sample size of one is not a sample size, um, that is statistically significant, and I, that's set me on my whole path. What is going well. [00:22:00] I think the, the visibility and amplification of women's. Achievements in sport, not just in women's sport, but of course we've seen women come to the forefront in head coaching positions and things like that.
I think the visibility of. Women and their accomplishments is something that can be easily replicated in our corporate environments. I'm not a big fan of, you can't be what you can't see, because that actually negates all of the trailblazers out there. They didn't see anything, so they created it. But I do think that there is a, a really big case for relatability.
Oh, okay. I can see Bri doing what they're doing. And I kind of identify with who Bree is and how they do their life. And so if they can do it, mm-hmm. Wow. I reckon I could, I could be a general manager of very important title, you know, whatever it may be. So I think that there's definitely that, that visibility and that is [00:23:00] a low cost, high impact strategy that any organisation can deploy.
And you know, things as simple as. I always say 50 50 using gender binary gender imagery. So apologies to all of our non-binary friends, but I, I remember in sports saying, in one of my board roles. Every social media post, every website, picture, every, everything must be 50 50. If there's a picture of a bloke, there must be a picture of a woman.
And our, I remember our social media intern just had 50 50 dotted all around on Post-It notes all around his laptop. But you know, these are really simple things to do. If you've got 10 men in a meeting. I say, where, where are the women? Where are the other people where? So I, I think visibility.
So the things we're doing, we're seeing around sport are really important. I, I think the visibility of gay and bisexual [00:24:00] men in, in Australian rules football, you know, Mitch Brown coming out is, has been, let's face it, first man in the AFL yo openly declare that he's not straight. He's extraordinary. But we've got a long way to go, Bree, because Oh my goodness, yes.
I read the comments. Mm-hmm. And I think there's a lot to be said about. How dangerous it still is for people who don't fit a very narrow paradigm of what a leader or an important person looks like in any, any, um, part of society, but particularly in organisations. I mean, we look at our leadership, um, ranks in Australia's biggest listed companies, and they're very white.
They're very male. They're very straight. Mm-hmm. Um, now I make, I make a gross assumption there, but we, kind of know well, well, exactly. Um, but, you know, there's a very homogenous looking group and, and one of my big concerns [00:25:00] is that one homogenous group is being replaced by another homogenous group.
So the old boys, old white boys club mm-hmm. Are being replaced by the old white girls club. And that's, that's not good enough. So I think sport showcases so many different identities. So beautifully. There's a lot to learn from that. And, um, is sport perfect? Absolutely not. But I think we celebrate so many things in sport around identity.
You know, fabulous Aboriginal athletes, amazing brave people who are part of the rainbow community who come out. Um, but we don't see that same celebration or, visibility. Visibility in our workplaces. Um. Apart from those true believers. So I think that visibility piece is really important. Yeah, I like that.
It's a good, good reflection piece to think about. Um. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you so much. I mean, because, you know, I don't know about you, but. I spent the first half of my life as [00:26:00] a straight woman. And the second half, well, this, half, this part. Yep. It's not half. You know what I mean? As a not straight woman, and I, I didn't realise until I, you know, jumped the fence as some people have told me, um, whatever this fence is that how you just have to keep coming out.
But as a straight woman, I never had to come out. So how do we stop people having to come out and we just go, how do we normalise the fact that they're the richness of our society? So awesome. You know, how do we stop saying to people of color, oh, you speak really good English. Thanks mate. But my granddad was born here so I probably would, you know, it's that kind of stuff, you know.
So anyway, I, I'm going to, going off on a rabbit hole now, now I'm onto rabbits, not ducks. No, I'm all here for the rabbits and the ducks real good. Oh, thank you so much for coming on and having a chat and hopefully it might come on another time and we'll have another For sure. Great. Chat about all of all things DEI
Well. Bree, thank you because you, you have been as educational to me as, as you've [00:27:00] said, I've been to you and, and I have looked at, you know, your, followed your journey, um, and your thoughtful posts and your, your newsletters and you always make me think more deeply. And I think that's, as humans, that's all we can do is say, how can I think a little bit more deeply about the impact I'm having in the world?
And that's what people want you do. So thank you. Oh, thank you. So kind. Alright, we'll have our little love fest here. Um, and those who, who are listening in, I'm sure you are thinking the same. So please feel free to engage on the, on the post where we share this content and, you know, send any questions through.
Michelle, where's the best place for people to get in contact with you? Just Google, Michelle Redfern, and I'm not the New Zealand rugby player. Um, it's michelleredfern.com. 'cause there's a Michelle Redfern who's a rugby player. Oh, brilliant. I just say I'm built, I'm built like a rugby player, front rower, but I'm not a rugby player.
Michelleredfern.com you'll find me. All right, beautiful. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll we'll catch you on the next episode.
Well, that's it for [00:28:00] today's episode of DEI Will Not Die. Want more resources and support to do the work Well, why don't you visit Breegorman.com and don't forget to follow or share this episode with someone who cares, and maybe also someone who should.